[lazyweb] Searching a social network for [tact]

[trochee]

caracola starts a discussion that includes the statement "ASL has no sign for tact". This statement struck me as suspiciously snowclone-ish, and I'm curious if anybody might know about such a sign in ASL.

Some of my friends here might have resources that have more information. Any ideas of where to look? Anybody know the sign?

To complete my jargon and topic list: social networks (how), sign language (what), and snowclones (why)!

Comments

[tulip-tree.livejournal.com]

I know a little bit of ASL but not that particular sign. (It's not high on the list of everyday useful words, though, so I'm not surprised I don't know it!) It's also not in my dictionary, but lots of things aren't in my dictionary.

Since ASL is a different language and doesn't correspond directly (esp. in grammar) to English, there might not be a single sign that directly corresponds to the English word "tact." I'm sure there's some version of the concept, though. From what I know about Deaf culture, though, there is a different level of bluntness (possibly interpreted as tactlessness by outsiders) that is generally accepted. For example, it's okay to tell someone that they'd getting fat (which looks like exactly the example that started your friend's discussion above, although in a different culture) which would not be considered tactful by most Americans. So there may be cultural differences about what is considered tactful and how necessary tact is... but I don't think ASL is devoid of tact.

Quick googling for "ASL" and "tact" mostly brings up job ads for interpreters, etc. Tact seems to be a common requirement, so again, I'm pretty sure ASL does have the concept of tact.

If you don't get a more complete answer in a couple of days, I have a meeting on Wednesday with a prof in my department who is fluent in ASL and basically grew up in Deaf culture (he is hearing, his parents are Deaf.) I can ask him what he thinks.

p.s. By convention in the Deaf community, deaf = unable to hear, while Deaf with a capital D refers to members of a community - those deaf people for whom ASL is a primary language.

[tulip-tree.livejournal.com]

can't figure out how to edit comments (is it even possible?) but I see that you didn't need my feeble attempt at explaining the deaf/Deaf distinction. Shoulda known the linguist would already know! :)

[marnanel.livejournal.com]

no, you can't edit comments. It's apparently supposed to be a feature.

[trochee.livejournal.com]

I agree that there are likely differences about where tact is necessary, but it's hard to imagine any human culture where the concept of tact itself wasn't necessary. We all have rules about where it's okay to say things, and these rules must sometimes conflict with other social needs; tact is just a way of working around that conflict.

And yes, I do know the Deaf/deaf distinction. I think I honored it, but I am always open to correction. I was mostly thinking about the Deaf [community]; deaf [condition] doesn't say anything special about whether the language has a word for tact.

I suspect you're right about the value of directness/bluntness; I suspect that (to the degree that such a bipolar spectrum exists) American English culture is out there on the "indirect" end with Japanese. My [tourist] experiences with other cultures have (to a one) found that there are many conversations that I would find difficult in American English that were totally okay with [Indian/Cuban/French/Chinese] communities.

[firinel.livejournal.com]

but it's hard to imagine any human culture where the concept of tact itself wasn't necessary. We all have rules about where it's okay to say things, and these rules must sometimes conflict with other social needs; tact is just a way of working around that conflict

'eavesdropping' is very no-no to Deaf, only the very tactless would stare at someone signing.

[tulip-tree.livejournal.com]

yeah, I figured out after I posted that you knew the Deaf/deaf thing. (I hadn't read the intervening comments which were posted while I wrote mine... your original post just talked about ASL, so I didn't want to start using terminology that might not be familiar. I agree that Deaf is the relevant topic here.)

The rest of your comment (about directness, etc) in general is really interesting. I would never had thought of putting American English and Japanese near each other in that regard, but I can see that that could be the case in comparison with other languages/cultures. (My limited impressions of Japanese are colored by examples in the form of funny stories, such as A's mom telling him, in varying degrees of forcefulness as he ignored her requests, that "the trash has an inclination to be outside," "the trash would really like to be outside" etc.) Which is not to say that Americans are very direct - just that the Japanese can be even more indirect. :)

Talking to A about this just now... he observes that Chinese people tend to be much more blunt about stating observations, but not about opinions, whereas Americans tend to state opinions without qualification.

Hope you don't mind the tangent... this is fascinating (not to mention far more interesting than the experiments I'm trying to run. :) )