[lazyweb] Searching a social network for [tact]

[trochee]

caracola starts a discussion that includes the statement "ASL has no sign for tact". This statement struck me as suspiciously snowclone-ish, and I'm curious if anybody might know about such a sign in ASL.

Some of my friends here might have resources that have more information. Any ideas of where to look? Anybody know the sign?

To complete my jargon and topic list: social networks (how), sign language (what), and snowclones (why)!

Comments

Determinism Strikes Back!

[xaosenkosmos.livejournal.com]

Maybe they just have a word that encompasses "tact" and something beyond tact which we don't have in our language, and therefore cannot conceive!!~

(Also fun in the context of snowclones: how many words does English have for rain? England is an awfully rainy place, after all...)

Re: Determinism Strikes Back!

[trochee.livejournal.com]

You probably already know that I am highly skeptical of the strong form of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.

I suspect that the Deaf ASL community has a number of concepts around the appropriateness of social interactions. It would be interesting if they divide up that space in a different way than English, but I don't think it would be terribly surprising. But that culture is complicated and fragmented and it would surprise me if there wasn't frequent borrowing from English, the superstrate language for many ASL communities.

Re: Determinism Strikes Back!

[xaosenkosmos.livejournal.com]

I have yet to meet anyone reasonable and informed who doesn't agree that strong determinism is deader than Sapir and Whorf put together.

Unreasonable: some of these people like S-W, but that's because it pushes their silly little (typically racist) worldview.

Uninformed: well, it's hard to fault journalists. They're like rambunctious little puppies of truth: sometimes their accidentally play too rough, sometimes they totally miss the fact that you didn't actually throw the chew-toy, and sometimes their housetraining is less-than-complete. In any of these cases, they're trying, really they are, they just aren't quite up to understanding that English-speaking Canadians have almost as many words for snow as the other inhabitants of the Northwest Territories and Nunavut do.

Re: Determinism Strikes Back!

[trochee.livejournal.com]

"rambunctious little puppies of truth" is just an awesome phrase. Thank you.

[tulip-tree.livejournal.com]

I know a little bit of ASL but not that particular sign. (It's not high on the list of everyday useful words, though, so I'm not surprised I don't know it!) It's also not in my dictionary, but lots of things aren't in my dictionary.

Since ASL is a different language and doesn't correspond directly (esp. in grammar) to English, there might not be a single sign that directly corresponds to the English word "tact." I'm sure there's some version of the concept, though. From what I know about Deaf culture, though, there is a different level of bluntness (possibly interpreted as tactlessness by outsiders) that is generally accepted. For example, it's okay to tell someone that they'd getting fat (which looks like exactly the example that started your friend's discussion above, although in a different culture) which would not be considered tactful by most Americans. So there may be cultural differences about what is considered tactful and how necessary tact is... but I don't think ASL is devoid of tact.

Quick googling for "ASL" and "tact" mostly brings up job ads for interpreters, etc. Tact seems to be a common requirement, so again, I'm pretty sure ASL does have the concept of tact.

If you don't get a more complete answer in a couple of days, I have a meeting on Wednesday with a prof in my department who is fluent in ASL and basically grew up in Deaf culture (he is hearing, his parents are Deaf.) I can ask him what he thinks.

p.s. By convention in the Deaf community, deaf = unable to hear, while Deaf with a capital D refers to members of a community - those deaf people for whom ASL is a primary language.

[tulip-tree.livejournal.com]

can't figure out how to edit comments (is it even possible?) but I see that you didn't need my feeble attempt at explaining the deaf/Deaf distinction. Shoulda known the linguist would already know! :)

[marnanel.livejournal.com]

no, you can't edit comments. It's apparently supposed to be a feature.

[trochee.livejournal.com]

I agree that there are likely differences about where tact is necessary, but it's hard to imagine any human culture where the concept of tact itself wasn't necessary. We all have rules about where it's okay to say things, and these rules must sometimes conflict with other social needs; tact is just a way of working around that conflict.

And yes, I do know the Deaf/deaf distinction. I think I honored it, but I am always open to correction. I was mostly thinking about the Deaf [community]; deaf [condition] doesn't say anything special about whether the language has a word for tact.

I suspect you're right about the value of directness/bluntness; I suspect that (to the degree that such a bipolar spectrum exists) American English culture is out there on the "indirect" end with Japanese. My [tourist] experiences with other cultures have (to a one) found that there are many conversations that I would find difficult in American English that were totally okay with [Indian/Cuban/French/Chinese] communities.

[firinel.livejournal.com]

but it's hard to imagine any human culture where the concept of tact itself wasn't necessary. We all have rules about where it's okay to say things, and these rules must sometimes conflict with other social needs; tact is just a way of working around that conflict

'eavesdropping' is very no-no to Deaf, only the very tactless would stare at someone signing.

[tulip-tree.livejournal.com]

yeah, I figured out after I posted that you knew the Deaf/deaf thing. (I hadn't read the intervening comments which were posted while I wrote mine... your original post just talked about ASL, so I didn't want to start using terminology that might not be familiar. I agree that Deaf is the relevant topic here.)

The rest of your comment (about directness, etc) in general is really interesting. I would never had thought of putting American English and Japanese near each other in that regard, but I can see that that could be the case in comparison with other languages/cultures. (My limited impressions of Japanese are colored by examples in the form of funny stories, such as A's mom telling him, in varying degrees of forcefulness as he ignored her requests, that "the trash has an inclination to be outside," "the trash would really like to be outside" etc.) Which is not to say that Americans are very direct - just that the Japanese can be even more indirect. :)

Talking to A about this just now... he observes that Chinese people tend to be much more blunt about stating observations, but not about opinions, whereas Americans tend to state opinions without qualification.

Hope you don't mind the tangent... this is fascinating (not to mention far more interesting than the experiments I'm trying to run. :) )

[firinel.livejournal.com]

Oh christ on a cracker *rolls eyes* you don't need to map from one language to another very specific words for the concept to be present in that culture. I don't believe there is a word for tact in ASL, no, I've certainly never come across one, BUT if I wanted to tell someone to be more tactful, I could easily sign 'don't be an asshole, be nice', and that would do adequately ;)

Also, just fyi, that thing about Deaf being more blunt? Keep it in mind with a pinch of salt - plenty of Deaf people are children of hearing people and would've been raised in a manner where saying 'you look more fat' would be unacceptable.

[tulip-tree.livejournal.com]

Also, just fyi, that thing about Deaf being more blunt? Keep it in mind with a pinch of salt - plenty of Deaf people are children of hearing people and would've been raised in a manner where saying 'you look more fat' would be unacceptable.

Oh yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for pointing that out. trochee is right - Deaf culture is complicated (just like any culture, but especially any culture that is not isolated and has a lot of contact with other influences.)

[trochee.livejournal.com]

Oh christ on a cracker *rolls eyes* you don't need to map from one language to another very specific words for the concept to be present in that culture.
I don't think anybody [here] is suggesting that. But it's still an interesting -- though not necessarily anthropologically significant -- question of whether there's a monomorphemic sign that reflects the thought "carefully skirting a social difficulty while still communicating well".

And your point about there being a way of communicating this without difficulty ("be nice" being one of those) is what I meant by reflecting my own skepticism of the implied strong form of the S-W hypothesis.

[firinel.livejournal.com]

*laughs* nono, I knew noone here was suggesting that. I thought, though, that the person who originally brought it up in your friend's post was.

There's multiple ways to say it, even, the 'be nice' was just the most simplistic. There's a sign for consider(ation)/thoughtful, and it would be correct to tell someone to be thoughtful/have consideration.