trochee | xenophobic jerk

Wait, Francis Scott Key gets to determine the way the anthem is interpreted? (This is the obvious reply to my recent anti-PCism post, which i was hoping nobody would notice =)

While i somewhat agree with Bush on the "You should learn English" thing, i just giggled and giggled after hearing him say what he did. "Awesome, Dubya! You just totally spent all the political capital you gained by backing the reasonable view on immigration!"

(I've said it before, but i'll say it again here for new people: I'm all for a language requirement, but with a very gentle "If you fail, we put you in these free classes until you learn" policy. If you can't talk to a doctor about family planning or you can't get a decent job because you can't talk to people, you're going to have a hell of a time acting as an independent person =\)

right, the spelling of "woman" is obviously influenced by the spelling -- and modern meaning -- of "man", hence the "womyn" argument isn't as kooky as one might think knowing the history. (Actually, that's what oviraptor there is pointing out, right?)

I disagree with the "you should learn English". There are economic reasons to learn English in this country -- more people to communicate with -- but why should the government insist that patriotism may only be performed in English?

And "free classes" is not going to happen with this or any soon-coming administration, mister. Why not encourage all Americans to be polyglots?

I tend to agree that "woman" has been recast in the form of "man," as it were. But the false argument is that "woman" is sexist because it's derived from "man," not that modern views of "woman" reflect sexism. One is intrinsic to the word's origins, the other is external. It's a very small difference, but it has huge ramifications for the argument being presented.

As for spelling it "womyn"... no. Please, no. I'm a founding member of the Council for the Care of Obscure Consonants. We believe that obscure consonants that don't really belong in the alphabet ('c', 'y', 'j', etc) really should just be put out of their misery, in the most graphane way possible. In the special case of 'and sometimes y', we feel that 'ai' and 'ee' make very convincing substitutes depending on the circumstances.

Why not encourage all Americans to be polyglots?

We totally should, but that's neither here nor there. Everyone needs to speak at least one major language. You can't guarantee that the doctor who speaks Tagalog will be working the ER at 0300 Monday morning when someone allergic to specific painkillers comes in with a major wound.

I'm all for immigration, don't get me wrong. I just feel like this is one of the few cases where we need to codify something in order to give people a good excuse. It's one of those things they need to do but would otherwise skip, because it's hard, typically expensive, and doesn't seem at first to be worth it ("I have my community here in ${ETHNIC_GHETTO}, why do I need to speak English?").

How does it affect YOU for people to stay in their own neighborhoods and speak whatever the fuck they like. If it is an economic disadvantage, they know it and do not care. If we need Tagalog speaking people in the hospital (which by the way is a bad example because most people from the Philippines that I have met know more English than Tagalog, seriously) then they can hire interpreters. Are you going to put interpreters out of the job?

Furthermore, people settling in an ethnic enclave makes it easier to have language related services in hospitals and the like, and if they haven't settled in said ethnic enclave, chances are they speak English anyhow, or will soon.

Having no official language is one of the things I really like about this country. One of the few remaining, anyhow.

I agree that the word "womyn" is an abomination though, for different reasons than you gave. Also "persyn". *shudder*

How does it affect YOU for people to stay in their own neighborhoods and speak whatever the fuck they like.

Isn't it amusing how rhetorical questions sometimes come out with periods instead question marks.

To answer the question: localized economic depression and segregation (voluntary or not) becomes everyone's problem. Apparently America is totally oblivious to this, despite repeated "race" riots. They were very rarely "race" riots, they were class riots, it's just that the way we operate (and discriminate) means that minorities are the ones living in the ghetto with no work and no opportunity. We've seen this problem most recently in the Paris riots.

so how is this fixed by forcing people to learn English?

wouldn't addressing the underlying racism and class-based inequalities be a better way to spend time and energy? It seems like blaming the victims who have been shunted to the bottom.

"Those partial bilinguals are just lazy for not becoming fully bilingual," said the monolingual hegemon who reads his text from a teleprompter.

so how is this fixed by forcing people to learn English?

How do you propose people leave the ${LANGUAGE}-speaking ghetto if they can only speak ${LANGUAGE}?!

And if they're not leaving their little corner of the city for work, where is the money to support that corner of the city going to come from? People from outside will have a hell of a time transacting business there, since there's a language barrier. It's not a matter of "Those fucking ${SLUR}s," but one of "I go there for spices and imports, but it's such a hassle."

I'm not even touching the rest of this. You have your worldview, and i have mine, and there's no convincing gonna happen either way. If, in your view, that makes me a cultural hegemon who's oppressing some victim, well, hey, i'm comfortable with that.

Ethnic enclaves don't exist for you. They exist for the people who set them up. You might get fringe benefits like "spices and imports" but it really is not about you. It's rather paternalistic to tell people what they should or shouldn't do about their own upliftment and associations in a supposedly democratic society.

Your words lead me to believe that you are uncomfortable going to an ethnic neighborhood. Well, imagine how uncomfortable it is for newcomers in the general culture. This is why people take time to network with those who have been here before and ease their toe into the cultural soup of America. It is not up to you to figure out how the economics of it are going to work. They work! Trust me on this! Centuries of history back it up, from the Irish all the way to the Hmong. Immigrants come and follow the same patterns because it works. Because supporting each other is its own economic reward. And everyone else here is richer for it.

Stifle that kind of richness and you pretty much destroy what makes this country what it is.

And if they're not leaving their little corner of the city for work, where is the money to support that corner of the city going to come from?

Ever hear of taxes which they also pay?

You have your worldview, and i have mine, and there's no convincing gonna happen either way. If, in your view, that makes me a cultural hegemon who's oppressing some victim, well, hey, i'm comfortable with that.

You have the privilege of staying in ${HIDEY_HOLE} and not being affected one way or another by any of this. Must be nice!

Since when have there been riots in Chinatown? Or the Russian neighborhood in NYC? Or Tehrangeles? Or a Hassidic neighborhood? Or in a Latino neighborhood in rural America? Or in Miami for that matter?

Ethnic enclave is not automatically equal to rioting. Nor does it automatically indicate "economic depression". Many people who come here are poor when they come, it's true. But your assumptions on what that means and how it plays out smell fishy to me. Since when does the bugbear of "rioting" have anything to do with the argument we are having about language.

What's more, since when is rioting limited to people who speak a particular language.

My ancestors came here and settled in ethnic enclaves. They had businesses that spoke their language (and some are around that still do) and they had community associations and helped each other. Eventually most of their descendents spoke English, but without such ability to have a safe space, the group would not have thrived and would not have been able to keep as much of its heritage as it has.

Furthermore, there are still parts of Chicago where people only speak Polish, several generations into America. Same with Italian in Pittsburgh. My boss was raised speaking Italian as her 1st language and she's 4th gen American and she grew up dirt poor.

Classism is huge in this country, but this debate is really about racism. Because Polish and Italian speaking Americans are generally not brown, therefore not seen as a threat.

The fact that you automatically went from not speaking English and living together in the same neighborhood to "minorities" "ghettos" and "rioting" speaks volumes.

yes!

I don't know why it's important to feel like English needs Proud Defenders of Purity in any particular way. It's already the hegemon; I don't think it's helpful for English speakers to hand-wave about its risk of being overrun.

I actually agree that "womyn" is an ugly word -- I was just using it to point at the discourse. I think we need to engage with words based on their meaning in our culture ; changing the spelling or arguing about their etymology (as if that determined the origin) is really not important. We need to ask what "woman" and "man" mean in this culture.

Well, I think everyone should learn and sing the original lyrics, dammit.

To Anacreon in Heav'n,
Where he sat in full glee,
A few Sons of Harmony
Sent a petition
That he their Inspirer
And Patron would be;
When this answer arrived
From the Jolly Old Grecian:
"Voice, Fiddle, and Flute,
No longer be mute,
I'll lend you my name
And inspire you to boot,
And besides I'll instruct you,
Like me, to intwine
The Myrtle of Venus
With Bacchus's Vine."

heh.

I mean, it may not have anything to do with the United States, but it beats the hell out of rubbish like this:

And where is that band
Who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war
And the battle's confusion
A home and a country
Should leave us no more?
Their blood has washed out
Their foul footsteps' pollution!

Tortuous syntax and a level of raw bloodlust matched (in the anthemic genre) only by "La Marseillaise." Is this really what Bush wants immigrants to learn about their adoptive country?

I'm not even sure what that *means* ! but it's clear that the Klingons would approve.

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xenophobic jerk

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Thank you

Great work

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Thank you